I had the pleasure the other day of attending the FAIR Conference and hearing William Schryver's now-famous presentation on the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. (If you haven't seen the video of the presentation yet, it's available online here.)
After the session I had the privilege of dialoguing a bit with some very bright folks I know from the message boards. Kerry Shirts videotaped these exchanges, and has posted the videos on YouTube. The first video is an interview with just me, whereas the second and third are a discussion with several folks, including Wade England, Loyd Ericson, and David Bokovoy.
14 comments:
Chris,
I'm really glad you posted these. Thanks again for getting involved in LDS history since, as I've said before, I think you do good work.
Thanks!
oh sure... don't mention that i am in there too.
I mentioned you, Loyd! You must have just missed it! Read it again!
(I love the "edit" feature. ;)
Hi Chris, It was interesting seeing you in a video after so many email exhanges with you. I was also pleased to see the others like Wade etc speaking. Wade seems more talkative, you more nuanced in your responses. As a non-believer it must be difficult (for me it would be) and keep cool in that situation. Maybe they hope you have so much exposure you might convert one day.I hope your explain sometime on your blog what this cipher is about. In your opinion from what you heard are the BOA manuscripts translation documents or some effort of Smith's collegues at reengineering?
Thanks for your comments Chris. I too have a difficult time accepting Will Schryver's thesis. As you point out, the Masonic characters (like the square or compass)are portions of the Egyptian characters that Smith extracted from the papyri.
The paper that you and Bradley have written will hopefully get us back to discussing the GAEL for what it was/is, a template for the first part of the Book of Abraham.
I agree with you. It is important to give Schryver praise for thinking out of the box.
Thanks, Joe.
Noel, I do not buy the "encipherment" or "reverse-engineering" hypotheses. Hopefully I'll find time to write up a blog post in the next few days about why these hypotheses just don't work.
It wasn't actually difficult to keep cool at all. I actually really enjoy heady intellectual discussions like these, as long as the other participants are reasonably cool-headed and rational people. I was having a great time. :)
Joe,
What is GAEL for the layman?
Tod,
That would be the Grammar and A[l]phabet of the Egyptian Language. It was a bound notebook produced by Joseph Smith and his scribes-- a sort of handwritten Egyptian lexicon, if you will. You can purchase a copy and transcription of the notebook here, although a much better edition is slated to be published soon-- hopefully by year's end.
Thanks Chris.
I'm watching Schryver's presentation on Vimeo right now, and I'm wondering if his research, though some here are not convinced by his thesis, has brought additional insight or new facts about the issue to light?
I'll admit that prior to your discussion of the KEP that I was mostly ignorant of their nature.
Thank you Tod for asking your question. I have done a little write-up. If this is redundant or superficial, I apologize.
This is a subject that is difficult to discuss. I believe this is caused by quite a few factors.
1. For the most part the Church has not made available the Kirtland Egyptian Papers (KEP) outside a very small group of people. The first to see the papers in the twentieth century was Sidney Sperry and James R. Clark. Since then it has been a few FARMS and FAIR people, with Hugh Nibley being the first. Steve Christensen was allowed to photograph the papers. Four sets of negatives were made, including copies now in the possession of George D. Smith, Edward Ashment and Brent Metcalfe. None of the above have been willing to share these images or papers outside of a very small group of people.
2. Egyptian religion is so different than Christianity or western thought that the ideas are difficult to understand. It is like a Christian trying to understand Gnosticism. Completely different vocabulary and definitions.
3. Hugh Nibley and crew have sought to distort and confuse the issues, the papyri and the KEP. His BYU Studies article is a classic example.
4. The KEP are made up of different categories. They include, but are not limited to: The papyri found in the New York Metropolitan Museum. The Joseph Smith Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar (GAEL). The papyri the Church had before 1967. The four Book of Abraham manuscripts. something called a "Counting Document", and two small note books. I know very little to nothing about the Counting Document and the two small note books.
5. The vocabulary of those who discuss the issues is foreign to most of us who would like to learn about the subject. This causes a steep learning curve. Some examples: lacunae and GAEL. Who says lacunae? I just say "missing part." For the life of me, I could not figure out GAEL for the longest time. Finally I realized it was an abbreviation for "Grammar and A[l]phabet of the Egyptian Language"
Part two:
Some great work has been done on the KEP. Egytologists and historians have both worked on this project. Mike Marquardt's "The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papers" is currently the only place you can see/get images of the manuscripts with a line-by-line transcription. Mike acknowledges that the images are deficient and the transcription has errors because of the low quality images. But Mike deserves a great deal of praise for being the one to make this material available to lowly people like myself. Charles Larson in his book "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" has very nice photo images of the papyri. Larson also details many of the issues and problems. Michael Rhodes book "The Hor Book of Breathings: A Translation and Commentary" has the best images of the papyri that is the source for Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham with one of the best line-by-line translations, if not the best translation. Rhodes also has a glossary that is essential to the student, like ourselves. THE expert on Books of Breathing Made by Isis (Which is the genre that Joseph Smith's Hor Book of Breathings falls into) has taken an interest in the Joseph Smith papyri and has done incredible work on the subject. His name is Marc Coenen. Unfortunately his articles are no readily available. I have some if you are interested. Chris Smith is currently working on the KEP and I have been very impressed with his work. Chris has published in the John Whitmer Journal on the Grammar and Alphabet in last September's issue and has a paper on the length of the Joseph Smith papyri that will be published in Dialogue's Winter issue (See Chris post about this). Chris is a valuable asset to Mormon studies.
It is my understanding Brian Hauglid's book of the KEP will be published in October 2010. (Is this what Chris is referencing?)This is quite exciting. Hauglid's book will make available the four Book of Abraham manuscripts in high resolution images. Unfortunately it will not have the Grammar and Alphabet. I find this a sad development, but I am excited about the manuscripts being published.
Brent Metcalfe has been working on a book about the KEP. Unfortunately it is unknown if or when this book will be published. Mike Marquardt has written a 60 page history of the KEP that is fantastic. Mike allowed me to read a few paragraphs when I visited him in July. This is supposed to be published in the Metcalfe book, but I worry this book will not published.
I hope Chris Smith provides an analysis of Schyver's presentation. On the Mormon Apologetic website Chris provided images that show Smith's use of the papyri for the Book of Abraham. I would like to see the same analysis done with the Grammar and Alphabet.
part three:
I hope Chris Smith provides an analysis of Schyver's presentation. On the Mormon Apologetic website Chris provided images that show Smith's use of the papyri for the Book of Abraham. I would like to see the same analysis done with the Grammar and Alphabet.
Hi Joe,
You're right, I forgot that Hauglid had said the upcoming volume won't include the Alphabet and Grammar. That will appear in a second volume to be published at some future time. So, it seems that the Marquardt volume is still well worth buying.
One minor sidenote: the papyri are not usually considered part of the KEP. See the Wiki article on the KEP for a summary of the collection.
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