I thought I had license to post this interview, when in fact I did not. So I've deleted it. Apologies to those who read, commented on, or linked to it.
Ilya Somin on the fall of the Berlin Wall
5 hours ago
Thursday, July 2, 2009
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9 comments:
Chris, I really appreciate you posting this interview. I'm glad to see that individuals are seeking to learn from what works and what doesn't work regarding approaches with those of a different faith. I think it is critically important to make those evaluations.
I also agree with Millet that part of the change in language with Latter-day Saints is the direct result of Ezra Taft Benson's emphasis on the Book of Mormon. In many ways, I believe there is a kind of "ad fontes" recalibration in contemporary Mormonism discourse. You mentioned D. Todd Christofferson, and in a recent devotional address he expressed preference for the term "agency" or "moral agency" rather than the popular term "free agency" as the latter is not a term found in the LDS scriptures. Elder David A. Bednar is another apostle who has recently encouraged a change in the language we employ. Likewise, discourse about salvation, I believe owe, in part, to the ad fontes emphasis.
I wish I could have heard the interchange between D. Todd Christofferson and Spencer V. Jones. I would have liked to have heard what the "traditional account of Mormon grace" is, and I get the sense that something may have been lost in the telling of the story since exhaustion doesn't seem to be a compelling reason for interpreting "after all we can do" to mean "in spite of what we do. " To say we would be exhausted after doing all we can do suggests doing "all we can do" is within the realm of human achievement. In 2001, while still a Seventy, Christofferson gave a talk entitled "Justification and Sanctification" in which he offers an interpretation of "all we can do." He suggests that "all we can do" is to choose Christ by accepting the gift of grace and mercy. He explains that "None of us, of course, is perfectly obedient." It's a good primer to understanding D. Todd Christofferson's views on grace and the law.
Hi aquinas, thanks for the clarification on Christofferson's views. I would have loved to be there to hear that exchange, too.
Thanks for posting this interview, Chris. Greg Johnson was the leader of the evangelical Christian student Bible study on the BYU campus the first semester I arrived, and I thought he was amazing. There was so much that I felt like I could learn from him. Sadly (or not-so-sadly, depending on how you look at it) he departed to found Standing Together after my very first semester there.
There was one year at BYU when I tried to make arrangements with Greg to go to Temple Square and be part of his nice, not-anti-Mormons greeters project. They simply stand outside and offer conference-goers juice and wish for them to have a nice day. Pastor Dean approached me about it and asked me not to go. I was kind of confused as to why, and he just said he and Greg have different approaches on how to reach Mormons. I don't think he really wanted his congregation represented there.
If I had known then what I know now, I probably would have asked him to be more specific about what his disagreement with Greg was, but I probably still would have kept my pastor's request out of respect. Honestly? I loved both men and I thought they each had great attitudes toward Mormons. I learned a lot from both of them.
Jack, that's very interesting! I'm very surprised that these two men would have a significant enough disagreement that Dean would ask you not to participate in a project like that. Their approaches are by no means identical, but they're not THAT different.
I'll offer that the more-traditional (historically recent Mormon traditional, that is) interpretation of "saved by grace after all we can do" is something like:
-- First, accept Grace
-- Second, Do all you can to remain worthy of it, under which is a lifetime of followership of
the Lord's Anointed", commonly understood to be the general and local leadership of the Church.
The difficulty with that stance is that the culture has forgotten that every single adult Church member who has taken covenants in the Temple has become one of "the Lord's Anointed", but there you are.
Rob,
You raise an interesting issue. Generally when Mormons talk about grace they seem to make it a universal phenomenon that restores our free will and gets most of us into at least the Telestial kingdom. Works are then something that are added on top of grace if you want to obtain a higher kingdom, like the Terrestrial or Celestial. The "all you can do verse" is interesting because it breaks down this neat compartmentalization and gets the order backwards (i.e. grace after works instead of grace before works). It suggests that there is grace required to get into the Celestial kingdom, too. So in that respect I guess you could say that it actually undermines the traditional account, even when interpreted straightforwardly.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
I thought I might post a couple responses to your blog on our conversation that we had last May. Your blog was just brought to my attention today and I sure wish that I had had a chance to see it before it was posted, as I would have wanted to correct a few of your impressions of our conversation.
Candidly, I was a bit troubled that you would post your interview with me without letting me have a chance to review it for accuracy. In a casual conversation with a person I am just talking to for the first time on the phone, I would think there would be some courtesy provided to me to make sure that I agreed with all that you wrote about or focused on in our conversation. I certainly did not know that our conversation was going to be the topic of a blog posting; I guess I have to be a bit more aware of such possibilities in the future.
Let me offer a few specifics...
Any references to Calvary Chapel Salt Lake City or the Sunday School program they offer on Mormonism or Bill McKeever's Compassionate Boldness Conference held at South Mountain Community Church as being "Anti-Mormon" were not appropriate. If I in any way conveyed this thought to you I am sorry for doing so. Our ministry approaches LDS/evangelical interactions in one way, other ministries do it in their way, and it is not my desire to criticize or publically denounce other Christian efforts to engage Mormon people or the topic of Mormonism in any way. I do not think of South Mountain Community Church or Calvary Chapel Salt Lake City as Anti-Mormon churches, nor do I think of Bill McKeever and Mormonism Research Ministry or any ministry like it as "Anti-Mormon" ministries. We have some methodological differences in our approaches to be sure, but I was disappointed by your characterization that I saw these ministries in such a light. It would have been better to refer to these two events (the Sunday School class and the Compassionate Boldness Conference) as informational seminars or more traditional approaches to Mormon studies. I want to apologize publically to Pastor Terry Long at Calvary Chapel Salt Lake City, to Pastor Paul Robie of South Mountain Community Church and to Bill McKeever of Mormonism Research Ministry for alluding to them in any pejorative way, and if I did refer to them in such a fashion to you in our interview, I was wrong to do so. I do not remember doing so personally.
Also, noting the positive terminology being used by various ministries to Mormons was not meant to be sarcastic in any way, I think it is wise for all ministries to evaluate their terminology and public presentation so as to draw as many listeners as possible.
Additionally, it would not have been my desire for you to directly refer to a high level interaction I have had with any LDS leaders. Again, this was my mistake to even discuss it with you in the first place and because I do not wish to add fuel to the fire, I will simply say that there was important misinformation communicated regarding my visit with Todd Christofferson.
Chris, my ministry in Utah is committed to the unity of the evangelical body of Christ in this state and your public presentation of a personal conversation unfortunately has pitted me against my brothers in Christ, I can only hope that you see why I was so disappointed by your blog post. I trust that you meant no harm to me or to the ministries you referenced, but I would hope that you would be more careful about experiences like this in the future, I know that I will learn from the mistakes I made in this situation and hope that my brothers will forgive me for any negative impressions I have made about their important work here in Utah.
Thank you,
Greg Johnson
Wow, Greg, I had no idea that you would react this way. I am extremely sorry. It did not occur to me that you might have a problem with my posting this. I did not mean for our conversation to be private; I hope I informed you I was using it for research purposes and meant to quote you in that context. I guess I just assumed that was license to post it in toto. I absolutely should have consulted with you first. Again, I apologize. This is the first experience I've had with doing interviews of this nature, so you have suffered as a result of my amateurism. For what it's worth, part of the reason I assumed it was okay to post it was that I thought it was a very engaging and interesting interview with no particularly objectionable content. You were very well-spoken.
I will delete the interview. I feel awful. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to make amends.
I spoke with Greg on the telephone and apologized, and there are no hard feelings. But for a lot of good reasons the interview will remain offline. Apologies to those who read, linked and commented on this post.
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